"A Court of Mist and Fury" by Sarah J. Maas
The following episode contains spoilers for all Sarah J Maas series and books, including the ACOTAR series, Throne of Glass and Crescent City. Thank you. Okay. Welcome back. Hi.
Rachel:I'm Rachel.
Kate:Wait. I'm Kate. And I'm Hannah.
Rachel:This
Kate:is And this is
Rachel:it. I you usually do it. I don't know. It's been too long. Too long.
Rachel:You
Hannah:do I don't remember. You do it. You do it.
Rachel:You do Kate. Go. Hi. I'm Kate. And I'm Rachel.
Hannah:And I'm Hannah. And this is Feast Sheath. And Shatter.
Kate:Dagger? It's feast sheep shatter. It's feast sheep shatter.
Hannah:There you go. I'm always the last one.
Rachel:Yes.
Kate:Yeah. Because you say shatter pretty. Alright. Let's welcome back. We're on our second book of our reread through the ACOTAR series with Hannah.
Kate:We didn't We didn't have Hannah last time.
Rachel:Yes. Nice try.
Kate:I'm practicing my deep voice. Can Nice try, friend. Because I've I know, but my voice is so much louder than everyone else's. So maybe I'll just, like, whisper. So guess how many times feast is said in wings in mist and fury and in wing and ember, which is the extra chapter that came out with the book that was Nesta and Cassian's, like, extra chapter.
Kate:How many times? Six. Guess how many guess how many times it's used in a sexual way? Twice. Oh.
Kate:Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Guess how many times the word shattered is said?
Kate:Many. I'm sure.
Hannah:Seven. No. 69.
Kate:Almost. Almost. Fifth 50. Wow. Wow.
Kate:Straight up 50 times. Guess how many times the
Hannah:word sheath is used or sheath or sheath? Definitely 69.
Kate:Six. Oh. No. No. No.
Hannah:Two. Two. Two. Okay. I mean, I was way off.
Hannah:Yeah.
Kate:Yeah. Yeah. So I think that was really funny. I've been
Hannah:counting them That's fun.
Rachel:Did you book a couple books? By any chance? I know you did feast sheath and shatter, but
Kate:I didn't do gobble. Does she use gobble?
Rachel:A lot. Yeah. At one point, she describes a color of black by using gobble. She goes, it was so dark, it gobbled up the light.
Kate:Nom nom nom nom.
Rachel:And I was like
Hannah:Nom nom nom.
Rachel:Gobble I can't hear gobble without being like, turkey. And I just every time she uses it, I'm like
Kate:Yeah. I think that's one of her words that means something incredibly different. And it's just like ribbons. Yeah. You know, ribbons torn to shredded to ribbons.
Kate:Yeah. Is it is one of those ones she uses all the time.
Hannah:I cannot believe how much happens in this book.
Kate:This is my favorite of the Feyre and Rhysand storyline. And I remember so after Throne of Glass, I shredded Into ribbons? Into ribbons, throne of glass. I mean, I question in like a week. Yeah.
Kate:And then I pick up this series. And you read the first book and you're like, yeah. And I remember, well, I remember being like, that Rhysand guy is made it. That's her mate. Mhmm.
Kate:That was a mating look. I know it. I knew it. I knew it. You know, you just you know it.
Kate:And I remember this book being a 100 times better than A Court of Thorns and Roses. Yes. It's very different. The way and the way I connected to it and her the expansion of the world. Yeah.
Kate:I feel like A Court of Thorns and Roses is super street level almost. And in this one, she decided, oh, I'm gonna make this a world. Yeah. Mhmm. And she was like, I'm gonna write a Beauty and the Beast retelling.
Rachel:Yes.
Kate:And then in this one, she was like, psych. Here we go. Yeah. This is actually Hades and Persephone's. Here we go.
Hannah:Yeah. I like it. I I just can't I forgot how much happens. I always think that there are four books when there's only three, you know, not count not counting frost. But the story is only three books, and I feel like this book could have been two.
Kate:Yeah. Maybe Yeah. She starts out marrying Tam Tam, and she ends the book. She's married to Rhysand. Well, she starts the book heaving up her guts.
Kate:Yeah.
Hannah:Let's talk about that.
Rachel:Watery bowels. Sarah
Hannah:Tamlin sleeping through her PTSD is like every man when the baby cries at night. Yeah. Like and Sleeping peace again. Better to
Kate:talk about I kind of yeah. I I kind of wanted to talk about Tamlin in this book and, you know, he gets a really, really bad rap and I think it's really, really easy to hate on him, but they're It's super easy. He's he's actually just a regular guy with as much trauma as anyone else who is just not ready to be someone's partner.
Hannah:Yeah. Mhmm.
Kate:Who doesn't know how to control his anger and his control, his need for control and his fear and his anxiety. Is unfortunately in
Rachel:a position of power and can use his unshielded Yeah. Ways on
Kate:And who was never brought up and ready for power. And I genuinely think he is not strong at being in leadership at this point in his long lived life.
Rachel:He just wants to be a lute player. It's not his fault.
Kate:Loot? Girl, he plays the fiddle.
Rachel:He just
Hannah:wants to jam at all.
Kate:Girl, he's a fiddler.
Rachel:No. I'm so sorry.
Kate:No. No. You're good. You're good.
Hannah:I cannot deal with that.
Kate:Yeah. But she starts throwing up. Sarah must have a connection, like, a very visceral connect. Like, her body must respond psychologically to her mind in a way that Yeah.
Rachel:Everybody vomits.
Kate:I think a little bit more more sensitive.
Hannah:Or gets the watery bowels.
Kate:Or poops themselves because they're so scared. Yeah. Or pees themself. But somebody pees themselves at some point.
Hannah:I can't
Kate:remember when it was.
Hannah:Someone does wet themselves. I can't remember who.
Kate:Is that this book? I think so.
Hannah:Don't know.
Kate:Yeah. I I watched an interview that Sarah did, Sarah Janet did right after this book came out and it was on Bloomsbury on YouTube and she was talking and introducing the characters and she acknowledged in this in her telling people about it that in the first book, she she wrote Nessa and Elaine to be cardboard cutouts of evil stepsisters, like older bad sisters. Mhmm. And then she shifted in this book and was like, just kidding. They're gonna be major players.
Kate:Mhmm. They're gonna be three-dimensional characters. Well, one of them. Mhmm. And and we're gonna give we're gonna give them life.
Kate:And I just think that's really interesting. And I love that she takes chances and changes what she's gonna do because that is what I'm always thinking of when people think she's the most intentional person ever. And when we're theorizing about all these theories and what she's planning, I do think she has plans, but I think she is a person that allows her writing to tell her where the story's gonna go. And so she will shift. So when people are like, well, it must mean this or must mean that.
Kate:Maybe not. She might forget about that, You know? Mhmm. Nesta and Lucian were were were supposed to end up together in the beginning, which is why she had flames on her drawer. And she kinda decided that's not where the story needs to go.
Kate:And so she was like, actually, I think Cassian is a better fit there. And, you know, she shifts. So when people are like, oh, she's so people give writers too much credit for being super crazy planned out
Hannah:and intentional.
Rachel:Most are not. Most are not.
Kate:Most are not. I mean, I think they'll have a like general idea of where they want their story to go. Mhmm. But if their story does shift or a character becomes a different person, they're not gonna like force them to do the
Hannah:thing. Right.
Kate:So I thought that was really interesting.
Hannah:That is interesting.
Kate:And she said she loves Nesta and she said she said, Kathyann is my type of guy. And I was like, oh, I relate to that a little bit. You know? Good luck him. Yeah.
Kate:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Feyre starts a lot does happen in
Rachel:the I forgot how short of a time she spends with Tamlin at the beginning. In my mind, going back to this book, it was like three quarters of the book. And then I read it and I was like, oh, she's out like immediately. I totally forgot that Yeah. It was that quite
Kate:odd. She by chapter 15, which is one of my favorite chapters in the book, she's with the night court, has already committed to knowing them working with them. And I think it's like 60 something chapter. So that quite early a quarter like not very far at all. Mhmm.
Kate:And I I remember the switch up. I remember reading it the first time and the switch up between how we were being asked to feel about Tamlin from the book to the second book was really, really easy. And for my Taurus for my Taurus moon, I was like, what? I was very kind of jarred by Like, oh, we're we're I knew it was going in a different direction, but I didn't know it was gonna look like that. And it did take me a minute to let go of Tamlin.
Hannah:Me too. I want to stay loyal to people. Now when I reread it, everything about Ampon makes me cringe. Everything he said, every word that he says, and it's obviously intentional. She's making everything he says.
Hannah:Yeah. He makes me furious. His little temper tantrums, everything is unattractive. Yep. Even when she talks about them having sex in the beginning, I'm like, ew.
Hannah:Yeah. Ew. I don't like this.
Kate:I think when I read this, I think it was 2022. Honestly, the language and the way I felt about relationships and the way I understood relationships should look was really different. And so I think I was catching up in with what healthiness looked like. So I didn't even recognize like Rach, you caught on really early that he was like
Rachel:A douchebag? Not a great
Kate:a douchebag, yeah. Yeah. You're like, I don't know about this guy. Who's this vampiric fan?
Rachel:Well, obviously, I'm gonna root But for the Lord of the Night also, Tamlin doesn't do anything. He doesn't do he just, he is in proximity when she is captive, and he's in proximity when she needs someone to attach to, and that's literally the only thing recommending him Mhmm.
Kate:At all. Right. Right. I see so much discourse, and it's really hard for me to I don't I don't engage in it. I just read it.
Kate:But about Tamlin being more redeemable than Rhysand. Like, a lot of people think Rhys is really evil, and I kinda wanted to talk about that And Feyre being an unreliable narrator and, like, not being able to trust her. And Rhys you know, the way that I think about good and evil in characters is, you know, everybody in I'm gonna use a Marvel reference, or let me look use a Lord of the Ring reference.
Rachel:There you go.
Kate:It's a fantasy podcast. Everybody all of the orcs thought that Aragorn was the bad guy.
Rachel:Yeah. Is that his name?
Kate:Yeah. Aragorn. Aragorn. Yeah. They, you know, Sauron thinks Gandalf is the bad guy.
Kate:Like somebody is always Mhmm. A bad guy on the other side. So when you're sitting here talking about who Rhysand is, you're on the other side of him. You're absolutely gonna see him. He is a very powerful scary guy.
Rachel:Mhmm.
Kate:And you don't really see that as much in here. I I I quickly became enamored with him and his what looks like agency, at least a lot more than Tamlin. Some people will say he still curates her experience. But I think Sera is well intentioned in letting him allow Feyre to have a friendship first and then something that blossoms into Fated Maiden. Why do they think that he's not
Rachel:a good guy? Like, I don't understand the I don't go on any talk, book talk.
Kate:I I know you don't. So their argument is, I think, comes from later books and just we didn't put this at the beginning. Rachel, will you do a do a thing at the beginning where we tell everybody that we're coming from a you have to have read all 16 books. We're not holding back. That the way that he treats Nesta a lot of people when we get him from Nesta's point of view.
Kate:Mhmm. The way that he holds back what he's not telling Feyre she's gonna die, when she's pregnant with the baby with wings, the way that he acts in flame and shadow. He's a little high handed, he is
Rachel:The high lord. I mean, you are talking about a character who has spent his entire life learning how to be a leader, which requires him to have no vulnerability. And then you put him in a very vulnerable position, and he doesn't act exactly the way you want him to? Like, he's not perfect, because he's not perfect, he's a bad guy?
Kate:Well, yeah. And my take on this is that I think oftentimes, people are venturing in to fantasy books who aren't classic fantasy readers, who are not accustomed to leaving our world, entering into a fantasy realm, and completely immersing yourself and imagining what society would be like, what each role would be like, actually being able to put yourself in a position of adjacent power while you're a war prisoner, making decisions that are hidden, you know, hidden decisions with hidden motives. Like, I don't think people sometimes have the ability to actually put themselves in that entire the entirety of that position. Yeah. And so what they do is they compare somebody to a guy today on the street.
Rachel:Well, and he has he has the most trauma of any character in the entire series.
Kate:Yeah. Mean, he was
Rachel:sexually assaulted for fifty years, forced to murder people, forced to use his power, which requires him to touch another person's mind, which means he literally had to destroy people's personalities on command for fifty years, because Tamlin didn't want to go and be somebody's boyfriend.
Kate:Yeah.
Hannah:Like
Kate:Right. Well, and I think oftentimes, I don't think people have the I I think some people don't wanna see it that way.
Rachel:He doesn't get a healing journey. Doesn't get he doesn't get magical therapy. He doesn't get anyone giving him time
Kate:to heal. He just has to go right back into his role. And I think that shows up a lot in the later books when I think that shows up in House in Flame and Shadow when he says, I should have he wanted to kill Bryce almost immediately. Yeah. As soon as he saw the weapons and everything in the Veritas orb Mhmm.
Kate:He immediately was like, I would never have done that. That anger that he has towards Nesta about giving Bryce the dread troves or the mask. Like, I think that shows up there. This is a man who has lost his mom and his sister. The only two family members that were kind to him, besides Rhys and Azan, Cassian, and more.
Kate:But he's lost his sister and his mom, had them murdered and taken away from him. His dad dies, then he has to go and protect his while he's protecting his people back in Valaris, you know, I just think that people don't have sometimes I don't think they have I I just don't think they're considering his entire
Hannah:back sacrifice is unbelievable
Rachel:and it Like, his sacrifice is
Hannah:more than anyone else's. It shows
Rachel:up in how he deals with Nesta. Because look at Nesta from Look his at everything that he gave up and how hard he fought to protect the people that he loves. And then you have this character that feels upset because they about her journey would feel valid to him, because she, when faced with the a small amount of loss, literally just losing their money, she completely fell apart and let Feyre almost die for her. And now, she's And their mom, yeah. And now, she's acting out.
Rachel:And I can understand why he would not see any part of her trauma as valid, because, yes, it feels equal to her because, you know, her lifespan is shorter. Of course, it feels just as big to her, but to him, it would not feel that big. And so it would be really hard. Can get how you can have a character that could not sympathize with Nesta.
Kate:Yeah. A lot of people can't sympathize with Nesta. That's not just the Rhysand thing. Yeah. A lot of people don't sympathize with Nesta and the way that her anger shows up.
Kate:But, yeah, I I think in this book, Rhysand I love this book for Rhysand. I love I think chapters 44. Sorry. Fifty four and fifty five are two of the best chapters in ACOTAR period. Love how much she grows this world in this book.
Hannah:Yeah. You find out a lot and he and answers a lot of questions, ties up a lot of loose ends in chapter 54. A lot of things we didn't know that was going on behind the scenes, he makes clear, so that's fun.
Rachel:The description of how she painted the cabin was a lot more unhinged going through it this time. She gives the windows hair. Just hair. It doesn't say she gives it. She literally gives them, like, hair.
Rachel:It's like, how would that show up? Like, how would you are they small windows? Are they big windows? Do they have a lot of hair? Is the hair styled?
Rachel:What anyway
Kate:It's like Just pompadours. Just It's like Beavis and Butthead
Rachel:hair. Yeah. On top Yeah. With
Kate:Just this one has bouffant.
Hannah:Yeah. And this one over here has some braids. One has bangs.
Kate:This one over here has some locks.
Hannah:I wanna see like two braids coming out from this one.
Kate:This one's, we call this one Pippi. You know?
Rachel:Just imagine you show up at your cabin and of course, everything else could look nice, but then the windows, for some reason, have, like, really realistic Fuck, looking
Hannah:Farrah. With this we like this place. Like, you freaking ruined our cabin. I think that's one of
Kate:the funniest jokes throughout the fandom is
Rachel:Me too.
Kate:Joking, like, do you think, in your mind, the way that you view Feyre, is she a talented painter or is she a not talented I
Hannah:think she paints like I would.
Rachel:Yeah. Okay. Which It's better.
Kate:It is not good.
Rachel:It's better if the hair is good. Like, it's better if the hair is, like, photorealistic.
Hannah:Mhmm. And all of the windows
Rachel:have photorealistic hair coming down the side
Kate:of my room. Mind, she put she can paint photorealistically as well. So, like, when she paints their eyes, it's like she painted a picture on like, literal picture
Rachel:on her.
Kate:Well, they recognize she is a really good artist. Yeah. It's a she's a really good artist in my mind, but I am very optimistic.
Hannah:In my mind, it looks like, you know, very, very seventh grade Yeah. Art class. Yeah. Little off. I'm trying to do, like, the shading.
Hannah:I'm trying. You know? Yeah. It's a it's a little off. The perspective is a little off.
Kate:You can tell it is.
Hannah:You know, the colors have not been, you know, mixed very much. We're using a lot of primary colors. Just just mixing with black and white to make them lighter
Rachel:and darker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate:Yeah. That's so funny. I I think that one of the most you know, another book that this reminds me of, and I hate to reference other book series, but it's to me, this is like Prisoner of Azkaban, the third book in the Harry Potter series because you get the first book. First book is
Rachel:a show
Hannah:gets real.
Kate:Shit gets so real. Mhmm. Yeah. It's like all of a sudden, oh, this isn't a fairy tale. Oh, this is some real shit.
Kate:She just left her boyfriend that she saved the day for. And really quickly, I do commend how much she values herself because I would have to get beat probably 50 times before I left because of how stubborn I am. Oh, yeah. So she is like, she realizes really quickly that, oh, I'm not going to stay for this. And I I really committed that.
Kate:And I remember when I read it, I was like, wow, I I wouldn't do that. So I under I don't understand, but I think that's a really great example Yep. Of what it means to look out for yourself and not let a man beat you up and lock you away. Mhmm. Or take the starter out of your truck.
Rachel:Yeah. He
Kate:tried to pull an Edward. Edward.
Hannah:Did try to pull an
Rachel:Edward. Right.
Kate:Uh-uh. Yeah. And and him having to and like understanding Rhysand's panic, constant panic that he's going on, that he's feeling on the inside. That poor man, like, I don't know. I guess it's because he's a man written by a lady.
Kate:Yeah. But he I like him as I like that man.
Hannah:I like that man too.
Kate:I like him. And I don't he just it make he's so emotional and vulnerable and also kind to who he feels deserves kindness.
Hannah:He may not have gotten to have therapy, but he knows what he has suffered. He understands the magnitude of his own trauma.
Rachel:Mhmm.
Hannah:And he acknowledges it, and he tries to get Barret to acknowledge hers. They can come on. Like, we we really went through some bad shit under there. Like, let's talk about it. Let's don't let her win.
Hannah:Don't let Amaranth the win by just sinking, you know, beneath it all. Yeah. He does try. Yeah.
Kate:Well, and holding back and not letting not telling her that he thinks they're mates I mean, that just in itself is another sacrifice. I mean, it makes sense
Rachel:to me he's mad at Lucian for telling Elaine that they're mates right away. What is Yeah. Like How do you win this game? If the rules are all made up. Doesn't tell her I their mates
Hannah:support Rhysand, 100%.
Rachel:He doesn't tell her they're mates, because he doesn't want her to feel, like Forced. Right. He's there as thing. Like, I'm only waiting for you to get better so that we can be together as mates. Mhmm.
Kate:Right. Yeah. And I think he really wants her to see him as a friend and a person, like, a whole being.
Rachel:Yeah. I think And look how she takes it. When she does find out, he's on death's door and she's like, you fucking take him, and just drops him in the mud and then dips. She's like, I'm leaving.
Kate:Another moment where she is so so about her. Like, she instantly goes from caretaker and partner and nurturer to know that me, baby. Mhmm. Me. Me.
Kate:Me. Me. And this is how I'm feeling, and this is what I'm gonna do in this moment.
Hannah:Well, and she she fought so hard to get to herself. You know? She she had to escape Tamlin, basically, and she doesn't wanna give that up so easily.
Kate:Right. Yeah. It's scary. Stand wanting
Hannah:to take I think you were a little dramatic about it, but I get wanting to have a couple days to yourself.
Kate:Well, and
Hannah:she makes sense to me. Also 20. Oh, yeah. She's yeah. She's a child.
Kate:Battle hardened. She's also twin battle hardened 20 year old. Burdens. At well, her 20 The greatest assassin. In the world.
Kate:Battle hardened 16 year old. Yeah. I think she's, you know yeah. Yeah. She does she gets so mad.
Kate:I think one of my favorite scenes and one of the ones that I go back to, like, just to read something happy is I think it's chapter 15 when she gets to sit down with the inner court for the first time and we get this glimpse at who Rhysand is, and it's the first time that Rhysand is really humanized.
Rachel:Mhmm.
Kate:And we really connect with his backstory. And when we get to see him with his friends, and we understand that this is who he was protecting, this is what's important to him, this is a part of who he is. That was just, I love that part so much. I love that caffeine is the one that tells the story and that we get all these little back stories of all these people. I I love those chapters so much, and they're really great to revisit when you just, like, wanna get just the lore.
Kate:It's just the lore dump.
Hannah:Yeah. It's fun.
Kate:Yep. Trying to think the cereal is Yeah. Feyre was like, okay. Thanks. I'm gonna go now.
Kate:Oh, and if you wanted to help your mate even more, you could crush up this flower. And she's like, my what? And and then and then the cereal's like, whoopsie. Oh, did you not Whoopsie doodle.
Rachel:Okay. Yep.
Kate:Whoopsie doodle. Oh, you did not know, favorite curse breaker. I love the cereal in this book so much.
Rachel:Me too. The cereal gets done dirty, honestly.
Kate:Yeah. I hate that, you know, so many people have plot armor. I hate that the cereal was the one that couldn't. But you know what? Cereal is a being and there are more than one.
Kate:So maybe we'll see
Hannah:a cereal in Yeah. Another.
Kate:Like the baby cereal. Aw. A baby cereal. Imagine that. Imagine.
Kate:Yeah.
Rachel:Since we're getting another one. A little creature. Aren't we getting Yeah. Little guitar? Another Yeah.
Kate:Sometime sometime in the next year or two. Soon.
Rachel:I know I saw a video of her shutting a notebook, and I was like, oh, and I think you sent it to me, and then I saw it somewhere like, I saw it everywhere for, like, a week.
Kate:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, people were having a blast with that.
Hannah:Hiding. Yeah. But again, you know, take your time.
Rachel:Take your time.
Kate:Do not rush art. Please. And don't use AI.
Rachel:No. We will know.
Hannah:Please don't. Will know. We'll find out.
Kate:It'll be obvious. I and I also think that she's a little bit from the characters that she writes, I do think she's a little petty. And I could see her knowing and understanding all of the fandoms out there and specifically swerving just to say, don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me what to do. Yeah.
Hannah:I'm I'm literally hoping for that because I do not want an Elaine and Azriel? Azriel love story book. I don't.
Kate:Well, a lot of people have big feelings about a lot of things, and you just have to take it as it comes.
Hannah:I I'm hoping that she you. Yeah. All the fan theory. What you get, and you don't pitch
Kate:a fit. It is a it's a lot. It's so much. It's
Hannah:a lot.
Rachel:It's just so exciting. I
Kate:need I see stuff I see new stuff every day. You know, I have a theory, and it's not in this book. It's in the next one, so I'll save it.
Rachel:But I might can you hear my dog? A little bit. Yeah.
Kate:Okay. I'm sorry. Okay. He's he's having a hard time. He doesn't get He doesn't understand
Hannah:that he's not in the podcast. Yeah.
Kate:He doesn't get I don't tell him no. Because why would you tell a small animal?
Hannah:We're saying the name Farrah a lot in here. So he's like, why are they talking about my
Kate:Why sister and not are they not
Rachel:talking about me? Yeah. One.
Kate:This has a lot of tropes in it, guys. This book has The only one bed. One bed. One bed. It's it's a slow burn.
Kate:Yep. It's supposedly a slow burn. Yeah. Got friends to lovers.
Rachel:I was gonna say.
Kate:Enemies to friends to lovers, the natural progression of thing. You guys, I really wanna talk about did y'all read the chapter I sent you? No. The wings and ember I did. Red.
Kate:No. I read it. I'm glad, Rachel. Yay, Rach. What'd you think about it?
Rachel:It was good, but it reminded me of how I felt about Nesta before silver flames.
Kate:Right.
Hannah:Yeah. Yeah.
Kate:I don't
Rachel:I don't wanna hate Nesta, but I really struggle with Nesta until Is she a brat?
Hannah:And it what happens?
Kate:100%.
Hannah:Tell me I what
Kate:think it is I love the bonus chapters more than anything else in the world because if there's something about me, it's that I love the subplots.
Rachel:Yeah. I
Kate:could give two fucks. I don't relate to main characters. I ain't a main character. I'm the subplot over there having a good time sneaking Yeah. Right?
Kate:So it is basically Cassian has to go check-in with Nesta. And we get this idea of Cassian has been thinking about her. He can't stop thinking about her. And it's this really tense interaction where he sneaks in the house and they go up together, and it's just really tense. But it's both of them being so, like, physically overwhelmed by each other's presence and constant friction.
Kate:Like, they either are hating each other or like almost almost making out. They don't. Sorry. But they are you know, it's just this really tense introduction to this subplot love story. K.
Kate:And I think it makes so much more sense for the ending of the book when Cassian is crawling towards her Yeah. After she goes in the cauldron
Rachel:Oh, is
Kate:to have that. And I love that I love, like, a have this Mhmm. And I'm not gonna talk about it again for two, three books. And then you get you know, you you start to really love them together. Mhmm.
Kate:And I never hate her. I understand her
Rachel:so I I understand her so No. Much. She's so bratty. It's the unearned arrogance. The I'm better than you with absolutely nothing to back that up with.
Kate:And then But she even thinks she's just faking.
Rachel:She even tells him Well, and she was she was taught to do that. She even tells him, like, I wouldn't be with you anyway because you're just a bastard. Your words
Kate:are less.
Rachel:Mean So
Kate:But see, to me, that was an accident a little bit. I think she said the thing and then realized in that moment, oh, shit. I didn't I did not quite mean to hurt him like that. Because what's nice about it is you do get his POV and her POV.
Hannah:Oh, okay.
Kate:So you get him saying you get this this first inclination of them being on the same page as each other. Like, he says a couple things about his intuition about what's going on with Feyre and Reese. And then we also see Nesta think the exact same thing. So they're very in kind of in tune with each other. We see the two sides of them kind of saying the same thing.
Kate:But I also kind of want to know the psychological like, obviously, Cassian's low self esteem, deep low self esteem about being bastard born, about being from nothing is one of the reasons why he is so attracted to her and the way she is and seeing through her bullshit. Like, there is something about both of their toxicity and things that are bad about themselves that are really physically attracted to each other. And I think that leads to some of why people don't think they're a great couple because some it's their low frequency shit that is really drawn to the one and the other. Yeah. But I do I mean, they end up they are mates, so they are drawn to each other, but they're both in this, like you know, I just think there is so much room for that growth and what that growth looks like in Silver
Rachel:Flames. I believe it in Silver Flames, but I just can't with Nesta until we get to Silver Flames. And I don't know if that's because of where we start with her, and then we actually tried to backfill Sarah J Maas tried to backfill all that information into Nesta, then she keeps telling us she's queenly. She keeps telling us she's a blade. She keeps telling us
Kate:She's sharp.
Rachel:She's a dagger. She's the world's greatest assassin. Like, you keep telling me this, but I never see it until Silver Flames. Yeah. Until Silver Flames, she's just, she struts around the room.
Rachel:Yeah. She never leaves the house. We see nothing else of her. Nothing. I know she's skinny, and she has big boobs, and she's bitchy, and that's all I know about her until Silver Flames.
Rachel:Yeah. Because we don't get anything with her. Like, she doesn't even when the queens are all together, all she is is just mean to them.
Kate:Mhmm.
Rachel:And you're like, I know you're supposed you're telling me that that's supposed to be her being strong, but to me, that doesn't feel strong, it just feels stupid. Because all of these It queens feels are
Hannah:very stupid.
Rachel:You know your sister needs this, and you're like, sorry, can't help it, gotta let my mouth run a little bit. And I just until we get to Silver Flames, when we finally get her point of view, we finally take her out of the house, take her off the shelf, and let our action figure do stuff. Then I see it. But I just feel like she tells us a lot about Nesta for a long time before she shows us anything about Nesta.
Kate:Yeah. Yeah. Well, she makes Nesta's insufferable, and she makes her that way. I mean, it that's how people feel about her. A mission accomplished.
Kate:Yeah, you know check you're not supposed to like her and I think there are You know I she is stubborn to the point of stupidity and they call it queenly. Yeah They're stubborn to the point of stupidity, and they call her a mountain cat. Yeah. They always refer to her as some sort of like beast. Yeah.
Kate:And I mean, I think that's setting up something later on. I mean, I think where we end up with her in House of Flame and Shadows, you know, she is does have a larger role in this bigger conflict that ate our way. There's a reason why she's like that, and I hope it pays off. But, yeah, I I love that little morsel of Cassian and Nesta in this. And I think it would have been really positive for the story, but I understand why you can't just, like, have a random chapter somewhere else.
Hannah:Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:And from a POV, don't see any other time.
Kate:Yeah. Yeah. Really? You just throw that in there. I think it gets edited out a little bit.
Kate:They're like, you're gonna get rid of this, and then they they kinda edit it out. I think one of the Sarah's biggest notes is you have to stop telling us and you have to show us more because she gets way better at it. By the time she writes house of earth and blood, she is so much better at showing us. She's like, let me show show not tell, show not tell. So we're still seeing her writing really evolving.
Kate:I think, you know, I think House of Earth and Blood is our most well written book, and Read. By the time we get there, she really has stopped doing that.
Rachel:It almost becomes a joke where everyone is telling Bryce who she is, and that's not who she is at all.
Kate:And who she's showing us she is is actually the quite the opposite. Yeah. Oh, I'm not some vapid party girl, you motherfucker.
Rachel:Yeah.
Hannah:Yeah.
Kate:Oh, what what was I doing there, buddy? Uh-huh. Do you think I was just getting my nails done? I don't think so. Guess whose motherfucking girlfriend that was?
Kate:Yeah. You know, she is yeah. And she and that becomes such a great part of her storytelling, is who people tell us they are versus who they actually Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. And this one Imagine her go Go ahead, Kate.
Kate:No, go ahead.
Rachel:This one reminded me of how good she is at micro interactions, people to people, and how she always likes to try to push herself to do big things, and is not always successful once she gets too complicated.
Kate:Sure. Give us an example.
Rachel:Like the queens. They don't have names. Okay. I don't know if they're all the same queen of the same country. I don't know if there's that many countries.
Rachel:I don't know if they all have the same I don't know anything about the structure, except that they have a book. If you're going to introduce them as characters, I gotta know the basics. You gotta give me a map at the front of the book, and give them each a king, the queendom. Or you have to tell me they're all queens of the same country, and give them whatever. I need to know, not just that they are the queens.
Rachel:They're only sending one letter.
Hannah:The queens.
Rachel:So where are they sending the letter to? Are they sending the letter to one queen? Do the queens all live in the same castle?
Hannah:I picture them all in the same castle, and they, like, do everything together.
Kate:I don't And like answer mail together. Picture them as, like, Germany, France, England, Poland. Like, I picture them as See? Queens of their own company that are, like, the European Union.
Rachel:See, but we don't know.
Kate:That's how I
Rachel:picture either way because that's with as much details we get, both could be true.
Kate:Oh. Mhmm. You know what else is great about this book? Sorry. I didn't mean to I fucking go into a different court, going to the summer court and meeting Tarquin.
Rachel:Mhmm.
Kate:And then that whole thing and Feyre's kindness towards the river nymphs or the nymphs. And then them coming back and saving the day, she loves to do that. That's the Aelyn's whole thing. Yeah. You know, be nice now.
Kate:It's gonna save you later.
Hannah:Right.
Kate:I love getting to see the other summer court, the other courts. And I I hope that I really do hope we get to see more of the other courts in the in the next book. It's nice seeing how everybody does their things. Oh. Mhmm.
Kate:And seeing that Feyre learns how to and and slowly watching Feyre come into her power and watching her Rachel, what was it that you it's not super clear. It's hard to understand that she actually turns into Tarquin to get into the underwater secret book of readings. Yeah. She, like, turns into him Yeah.
Hannah:And, like, tricks the wards into the king's
Kate:She, like, shapeshifts into him.
Rachel:Yeah.
Kate:And, like, watching her develop her power and then realizing, like, how strong she is. And then the water wolf sink, which doesn't really I don't where's the wolf thing coming from? The water wolf. Yeah. Her one of her, like, powers naturally shows up as
Hannah:water wolf. When she's, like, when she's making Well, the
Kate:when she's fighting, when Hibern attacks Valaris Mhmm. She she her instinct is to create wolves of water and and kill them kill people with wolves of water. Is that not you would do? So complicated. I may be So needless to don't know if I to I don't know if I relate I don't know.
Kate:That's what I'm saying. Like, that was the first time we picture her as a wolf or, like, related to wolves. Like, is she Danica Fendir's great grandma?
Hannah:I was just thinking, like, because she makes those little
Kate:She kills
Hannah:her animals.
Kate:The like wolf.
Hannah:Yeah. Let's just make them
Kate:Ferocious wolf very pricey. Well, as an NC State alumni, I actually do appreciate the wolf pack. Yes.
Hannah:The water wolf pack. The water wolf pack.
Kate:The water wolves. Yeah. And she you know, her powers, which are a little weird. Sarah is good at giving us some, but you're right, Rach. She could deeve.
Kate:You could deeve.
Rachel:This is where
Hannah:Deave dev.
Kate:She could deeve people. This is
Rachel:where it would benefit from being two books, because we could stretch Because parts when we go to the summer court, which is a good scene, we befriend everybody, we spend all that time, and then they're like, great, let's steal their shit. And it's fine. It's fine for a short for this. I'm not. But if you really wanna show me that they're acting politically, that Rysand is a high lord, and he's a trained politician, we needed to attempt some form of political means of getting this
Kate:thing Of diplomacy. Right. Of diplomacy rather than
Rachel:espionage. Because they're literally just like, oh, he'll never give it to us. Whatever. Fuck, we'll steal it. Instead of like, well, maybe we send why did her name just leave me?
Rachel:Ameren. Why don't we send Ameren in there to feel out? Like, do they know what's in there? Would they be willing to give it to us on loan so we can give it back? Although we can't give it back because Feyre tucks it in the cauldron, but whatever.
Rachel:And, like It's okay. Girl, there's a whole another a whole ass copy of that book. No.
Kate:No, shut
Rachel:Jenny, would you do that? What?
Kate:She just Meh. Chucks it. Yeah. No. But there's okay.
Kate:There's a whole last other copy of it. No worries.
Rachel:You're you can't tell me that they're political and that Rysand is a very good high lord, like political high lord, and then not have him do any politics.
Kate:Well, and I think that is maybe its intention is to show that he's actually not perfect and he doesn't do everything right, you know? Because I do think I do think that is a his fear of the the bad thing happening. Yeah. Because for him, the bad thing always happens. Well, give
Rachel:me conflict in his court before it, where they're like,
Hannah:because I it's don't think there was time. There wasn't time in this bull Right.
Rachel:That's why I'm saying
Kate:to show off
Rachel:his It's fine as is, but if you're gonna do two books, you could add that in. Where he has a discussion And with his court, where he's like, what if we steal it? And they're like, what if we ask? And he's like, I think if we ask, they're not gonna give it to me because of who I am. And then we get like a, oh, okay.
Rachel:That's why Yeah. You you immediately go for the nuclear option.
Hannah:Yeah.
Kate:I I think building in and building in more urgency, that could definitely because I think we forget that they don't have a lot of time. Because, you know, this is a romance, but one of the things I think one of the things that does happen that people really do love these books is there is a lot of plot happening. And the plot's pretty good. I like the plot. I like where the plot goes.
Kate:You know? I I understand that we're trying to, you know, bring everybody together so that we don't have to face hibern alone. I understand the stakes of the wall coming down and the protection of the humans. I understand all of that, but we are also it is a love story, so I think there is more room to build upon the politics and just flesh them out a little bit more.
Rachel:Yeah. Especially if you're, like you said, we're all working on, like, we're gonna have to work together to defeat Highburn, then doing an act that intentionally isolates someone you know could possibly be an ally doesn't make sense.
Kate:And I think in the next book, we get some of that. I do like that she does circle back to it. It does come back and bite him in the ass. You know, he does we get that point when they get those blood rubies that, you know, oh, he feels bad. He feels terrible that that's the decision he made.
Kate:He says like, oh, I made a mistake. Yeah. Well, one, I didn't I didn't I fought those guys instead of mind melting them. I used my physical prowess instead of melting their minds. And then he's also, you know, frustrated with himself for not attempting to you know, he likes Tarquin.
Kate:Yeah.
Hannah:Yeah. And I think I was gonna say, I think maybe before Amaranthi, he was more diplomatic, but also everyone is scared shitless of Rhysand, and I think that's from before Amarantha. Like, he maybe always had this reputation Well, yeah. Of just being, like, a come in and take what he wants type of high lord, and maybe didn't work with people, you know, that well.
Rachel:Yeah.
Hannah:Because it does feel like he is the enemy of all the other cores.
Rachel:Which is where you give me the They That's where you give me the short scene of him being like, well, I'll just take it and then being like, well, that's who you used to be. Is that who you still wanna be?
Kate:That's who they think you are. That's not who you are. Just giving So let's show them who you are.
Rachel:Right, and then he does it anyway, and then afterwards, he feels bad about it. Then it feels earned. Then you're like, oh, okay, you knew it was possibly the wrong idea, and you did it anyway, and oops, it was the wrong idea. Instead of me having to extrapolate that from between the pages, because none of Some of that is in there, and a lot of it isn't. So it's like, that's where she's really good at, like, the Rysand and Feyre, Rysand and his friends, Cassian and Nesta.
Rachel:But once we get big Mhmm. Once we go any bigger, she starts to struggle. And that's where she needs an editor to step in and be like, I'm not feeling the reason that he's doing this here. Can you add a couple of lines? Or I'm not getting that this is like, you're on a time crunch.
Rachel:Can you add in some Mhmm. Like, dates or something for me so that I I'm I'm caught up with how urgent this is.
Kate:Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that her editors I mean, she has become one of Bloomsbury's biggest writers, and I think that they have spent more time on editing. Like, I like, I wanna, you know, I wanna go back to House of Earth and Blood, which is written, you know, several several years after this one, I think in 2020, 2020, 2018, 2019, this came out in 2016. By that point, she she has people telling her, like, you know, it's so concise.
Kate:We know she can be concise. Yeah. We know that she can write a book where everything is important for the what is to come. And, yeah, I think you're right. I think they definitely could have expanded on it and that there is more room.
Kate:And I think that when people say, oh, well, she's terrible writer. She's, you know or she does she's terrible world builder. There's, think there's some room there.
Rachel:I have my same problems with the ending of this one that I had with the last one, which the last time I read it, because I like when Nesta goes in the thing and does the point, which I've seen a little
Hannah:bumper sticker
Rachel:of just the point, which I think is funny. But they're big mad that now they're immortal, and they have magical powers. They're like, goddamn it. I'm so mad. I'm so beautiful forever.
Rachel:How pretty, honey. I have magic powers, and now I'm not gonna die, and this sucks. And I'm like, I don't believe it. You didn't give me any drawbacks to being a fairy that would make me believe that it matters.
Kate:Okay. Let me let me get let me let me put you in a space. Let me build it for you. Let me okay. I'm here.
Kate:We are always in Feyre's point of view. So the whole whole book, we only see how cool the fairies are. There really is no drawback to being immortal and beautiful and rich. None No. That I can see.
Rachel:No. I mean, you have to live in England, basically.
Hannah:But, like, think about how they were raised.
Kate:Think about In their point of view,
Hannah:Berries like, are devils. Yeah.
Kate:It's demons. They're demons. They're evil. They're That's not gonna work on Rachel.
Rachel:She prefers Sorry. Prefers I'm like,
Kate:oh, yeah. She prefers people of the night.
Rachel:So they're cool. Okay. They're cool. No, I get it I get it that they're like, they're murder y, and I'm like, I don't know.
Hannah:Right.
Rachel:Okay.
Hannah:Yeah. You weren't raised in a cult, and it shows, Rachel. I mean, I was
Rachel:raged really religious. Like, I was just fundamentally religious, just not in a cult, but Yeah. I I get it. I I get the, like I get it. I just don't get it.
Rachel:Like, I get it for I get it briefly, and I get it if you gave me something that like, if I if I knew why, because we never except for their stories, basically, their fairy stories, where they talk about how bad they are. We never actually see them do anything bad except to each rumors. I mean, they hurt each other a
Kate:lot time. We do in the next book a little bit when when those the twins eat the people.
Rachel:Yeah. I mean, I
Hannah:Those creepy little twins.
Kate:And I mean, but they think they think that fairy fairies, the fae eat humans. Yeah. Like, they think that. So they're being turned into something that is a natural predator of Right. People I get it for who they
Rachel:actually Like, I get it for at first, when they come out and they're like, oh, shit.
Hannah:I give you two days.
Rachel:And then to be like, It really doesn't take We're we're fine. And but they they mad for a long time. Nesta's mad for a long time. I mean,
Kate:I mean, not really. Like, let's just break down that time. Okay. So Silver Flames happens, like, six months after Wings and Ruin, maybe less, maybe a year. Right?
Kate:And then that story is a year, so that's a year and a half, two years. And then by the time we get to House of Flame and Shadow, that happens about six months after that story. So she's big mad for maybe two years. So is that a long time? Yeah.
Kate:That's a long ass
Rachel:time to be mad. You you proved my point.
Hannah:Thank give you two days.
Kate:But it feels like Yeah. You just proved.
Rachel:I think
Kate:but I think I mean, would you be mad? How long would it take you to get over being, you know?
Rachel:I don't think it's the same. It's not apples to apples.
Hannah:Mm-mm.
Rachel:Isn't it having your autonomy and your agency being violently ripped away from you? They are being put into a situation where they have more autonomy, though. They go from being they But have to marry it's too half. In order to have position, to being in a place where they don't have money problems, they don't have any obligations. They're free to do whatever they want.
Rachel:Yeah. But the act itself was
Kate:Like, violently
Hannah:violent and taking their
Rachel:I mean, they don't get a choice.
Hannah:Hours away
Rachel:from them. Not having a choice.
Hannah:Yeah. That's the that's the only upsetting part. That's Yeah. It's only thing to be upset about. Forced upon them.
Hannah:It was for you were dumped into a cauldron.
Kate:Dumped into billionaire beauty. And then everyone saw you all wet. You know? Like, that's embarrassing. Through your white gown.
Kate:Yeah. Like, excuse me. I would have put
Hannah:on something different if I'd have known I was taking a bath in front of everybody. Yeah.
Kate:Yeah. If I was being dipped into the chasms of the culture.
Hannah:And I didn't realize that y'all would be staring at my pink areolas through my white gown.
Kate:They were also kidnapped. Didn't know what they were gonna happen to each other, and they all watched each other. I don't know. I think trauma, if you don't deal with it, can stay for a very long time.
Rachel:That.
Kate:And I think that the act of the thing, even if the benefits even if you come out Mhmm. A billionaire because Rhysand is a is a billionaire. Yeah. He is in essence a bear this is a this is a billionaire story. He's basically Batman.
Kate:Yeah. Bruce Wayne. Mhmm.
Hannah:Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. Basically.
Hannah:There is no difference. Maybe
Rachel:And maybe the fundamental flaw here is punishing making them into immortal, beautiful, magical beings. Like, it's not on them that they don't get with the program too quickly, but it's like, what evil villain is like, I will turn you from a mortal that I can easily kill into a thing with more power and beauty than I can even imagine. Well, they weren't
Hannah:they weren't doing it to them.
Kate:There was a they were guinea pigs.
Hannah:They were guinea pigs, but also, it was a punishment for Feyre.
Rachel:Yeah. But it's still is it a good punishment?
Kate:Or, like, used as we were just trying to make you have your sisters forever.
Rachel:I mean,
Kate:it'd be
Rachel:a punishment to turn them into, like, the surreal or to turn them into a water wraith, something where you make them into a faye, but not pretty.
Kate:Are they wraiths or nymphs? Did I say
Rachel:it wrong? Were they nymphs? The water whatever. Water thingies.
Kate:What what I'm just asking, was it were they nymphs or wraiths? Water Anyways,
Hannah:there's both of them. Water wraiths. Okay. Okay. Wraiths.
Rachel:Wraiths. It's just a unique choice. I mean, if you're gonna make them the guinea pigs, you can be like, okay, great, it worked. And then you disable them in some way, instead of being like, cool, now go out and live your lives.
Hannah:I think the scary part was they didn't know if it was gonna work. Like, they very easily could have just been killed in the cauldron.
Kate:And turned to monsters. And yeah. They didn't know that the outcomes were gonna be so good.
Hannah:They were used as guinea pigs, which is the infuriating part.
Kate:Yeah. And I really I do think and I hope that we do get a little bit more lore and a little bit more deeper explanation as to why those women were able to go into that cauldron and the cauldron recognized them as something and give them a power, and they were able to take something from it. Yeah. Because that seems a little wild to me. Right.
Kate:Maybe they're like so strong. Maybe they have like Asterian she's so She's so queenly.
Rachel:Queenly. Mountain cat.
Kate:She's so mountain cat steel brain.
Rachel:Did they call her an unsheathed blade or something? Okay. Unsheathed. I love how not insurmountable the the wall between the fairy and mortal realm is. They're like, oh, yeah.
Rachel:We just gotta go, like, a mile off the off the coast, and we're good to go.
Hannah:It yeah. Also, it's like it's not even I wouldn't call it a wall. I think you could probably step over it.
Rachel:It's insurmountable in no
Hannah:to, like, waist height. I I see it like a crumbling waist those Yeah.
Rachel:Those walls in England that are kinda Yes. It's beautiful.
Hannah:It's like a little hedge row
Kate:of magic, but it's easy to cross. I mean, they do not struggle too hard to get back and forth over it. They
Hannah:do not struggle
Rachel:too When they didn't need to, it was solid. And then as soon as they're like, Well, we need to go over there, they're like, Well, there's there's gaps.
Kate:A hole? There's there's gaps.
Rachel:Yeah. And we can just fly there. It's fine. Which I guess not everybody can fly. So
Kate:Is that yeah. This isn't yeah. It isn't
Rachel:You can't winnow through it. Got that going for him, which we don't explain why the queens can winnow either at all.
Kate:We we get yeah. You're I think we get a tiny little bit of explanation about that, which is that, you know, five hundred years ago, they were gifted the power of one wing. But in the she doesn't explain the magic. So you're not wrong in saying like, okay, that could have been a we could have had a stronger explanation there. But, you know, there's room there's room for growth.
Rachel:There's room for growth.
Hannah:Yeah. There's that's an opportunity for a little side
Kate:story, I think,
Hannah:or a bonus chapter.
Rachel:Would be a great side story for when Lucian wanders off and goes on that quest
Hannah:Yeah.
Rachel:That happens entirely off page.
Kate:Yep. And he just comes back with
Rachel:their dad.
Hannah:Like, that is that could be its own book. That would be
Rachel:an an excellent way
Hannah:A wish list.
Rachel:To flesh out the human world is to have Lucian
Kate:traveling through all
Rachel:of the human kingdoms. Yes. Like, let's
Hannah:what's going on with this lake and this sorcerer
Kate:on the conga? Who is this guy?
Rachel:Wild that that happens off page. Wild. I can't wait till we get there. Because that is so much. If it was, like, an one thing, it would be fine.
Rachel:But he comes back with, like, the firebird lady, and then he comes back with their dad. He comes back with all these things that there's no reason
Kate:for him Yeah. To be able to
Hannah:I need a whole another book just on on that. That would be so fun.
Kate:Yeah. It is a slightly I I guess a writer might say, like, lazy way of solving something is to have an entire story come together that there was no illusion to.
Hannah:Yeah. Yeah.
Kate:You know, there was no foreshadowing. It's have either of y'all read Kingfisher? I've read.
Rachel:Yeah. Mm-mm.
Kate:Oh, no. No. No. Sorry. Sorry.
Kate:Sorry. Quicksilver?
Hannah:No. No. It keeps popping up on my for you page.
Kate:It is very it is Is it good? It's it is Yes or no? I it's not a yes or no answer. Okay. It's not a yes or no answer.
Kate:So I had to pick it up four times to get into it. Once I got past the hump, I enjoyed it to where, like, I couldn't put it down, but I wasn't having the best time. Was having an okay time. There are a couple characters in it that I really like, but what happens at the end, it was like it happened for the sake of it being not relevant to anything that's happened before. So it was just like I'm twisty.
Kate:I'm gonna
Rachel:Look how twisty I am.
Kate:Look how twisty I am. I'm not trusting my for you page anymore. Like Quicksilver is okay. It's it's not a bad read. Like, it's romantic fantasy, but it's written kinda like mafia romance a little bit.
Kate:Like, he's a little bit darker, little bit harder. And, you know
Hannah:There's like four people on Earth that five. I would say six tops that I will read something that they tell me to read.
Kate:Yeah. Don't I don't know. I don't I I don't know about that one. I did read a really, really great book called Blood Over Bright Haven. It was really good.
Kate:It did not end well, I won't say that.
Hannah:It ended. Like, I've never read something that you told me was good and thought, this is not good.
Kate:Okay. Well, I'm glad.
Hannah:This is good. That's good. You're you're on
Kate:the list. Thanks. I I'm glad.
Hannah:And obviously, Rach is on the list.
Kate:Oh, Yeah.
Rachel:That's perfect.
Hannah:So I haven't I read
Rachel:just finished Like, all of these songs. I did just finish the Dark Tower series. How did that go? It was really good, surprisingly. But to put into perspective kind of how you can have these really weird coincidences, and they work, is there is a force throughout the whole Dark Tower called Ka, and it's like the hand of the writer in the story, and it's part of the story.
Rachel:So really coincidental things will happen, and they're all like, oh, this is We know this is literally driving the plot forward, because that's what this force does. And so, he can really manipulate the characters into doing things in a way that feels believable, and he doesn't have to obscure He doesn't have to work it in. He can be like, well, this is caught. And at first, it really bugged me.
Kate:Isn't that a really meta way of making your story do what you want
Rachel:it Yeah, to it did, but it's a very self aware of, I realize this is super coincidental, but that's intentional, because the entire world is working to bring these characters to a certain place. And that worked really well. I can't say that if he did that in every book, would love it, but it worked really well because of how well he worked it into the story. And the characters would get How mad books?
Hannah:How many books at all in all?
Rachel:I think there's six or seven. Seven?
Hannah:Okay. Yeah. I never got past three.
Kate:There's thousands and thousands and thousands of pages.
Rachel:It's a lot. I mean, it's not I wonder if I could listen to it. The first one they're all so different, because it's it's like king from different eras. Like, the first one is, like, really early king. And then the second and third one are kind of Mhmm.
Rachel:Like, when he's a little bit better, but he's not where he's gonna be. And then the really didn't like the fourth one. Wizard in Glass, I didn't like at all. And then fifth, sixth, and seventh, he wrote after he got hit by the car. And he wrote them all in one go.
Rachel:And so five, six, and seven flow the most together. And they all came out within, like, a year and a half of each other because he wrote them all at once. Wow. So they are very different eras. But I enjoyed it.
Rachel:I don't think I would maybe now that I've read the whole thing, I go back and reread it. But I did like how he is so self aware of how he's manipulating the characters, because it's kind of his series, and he never writes series. I think rather than trying to I think it's part of his way of, like, putting he literally puts himself in the book like he is a character in the last couple of books, And the idea of him writing these characters, because he brings in characters from other books, and it's so it becomes more of an exploration of, like, fiction, and how creativity, and how the creation of an author can actually be the creation of another world, and is he actually writing these stories, or are they coming to him and he's just translating them? It's a very interesting It was good. Having this
Hannah:I love that.
Rachel:Having this ka force, or whatever, be a part of the world allowed him to really explore that, and that's one of the few places I think it it works, where you can have these really extreme coincidences, and it's like, it's okay. But most of the time, it just feels like the writer being heavy handed.
Hannah:Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. That's where I was going
Hannah:with Stephen King. That's so interesting. I've never I wonder if I could get back into it. Yeah. I've got the first couple on my auto
Kate:You do? You mind if I read them? Oh. Thank you. Yeah.
Kate:Anyways, back to this so we can wrap it up just so Hannah can get on the road. I really love this book, and I think it's great.
Hannah:I really like it too. The next one's my favorite though.
Kate:Rach, anything that stood out to you? No, I meant In a general sense?
Rachel:Or in a Yeah.
Kate:Yeah, like, I mean, I think you've kind of shared what you really thought about it. I mean, reading it through the second time, are you finding yourself
Hannah:This is just your second time?
Kate:Yeah. She doesn't like
Rachel:this
Kate:And I was shocked whole
Rachel:I was shocked at how much I'd forgotten, which I thought was interesting.
Hannah:Like, second time this year? Yeah. Or
Kate:Yeah. No, that's how I feel. I'm like, I think I've I don't remember how many times.
Hannah:I don't remember.
Kate:Yeah, I don't either. I know I've read I know I've read House of Earth and Blood eight times.
Hannah:Holy mother.
Kate:That's a
Rachel:big one.
Kate:That was a big remember when I say when I say read, I'm talking about listening.
Rachel:Same thing.
Kate:Yeah. You know? I've I've listened to it eight times.
Hannah:But that's paying attention? Yeah. I mean Then, yeah, you read the book.
Kate:Yeah. I I mean, I'm I'm I put it on. Like, I'm like, I'm bored. I wanna go home. Mhmm.
Kate:I wanna go home. Cozy. So I put it on, and then, you know, it only takes there it's probably only twenty eight hours, and I listen at one point five to one point six five. So, you know, you square away, like, nine, ten hours. I'm in the row I'm in the car so much.
Kate:Like You
Hannah:are in the car
Kate:so much. Children. There's I'm just constantly I'm
Hannah:constantly randomly pulling up your dot just to see where you're zooming around.
Kate:I need to remember to turn your shit off if I ever need to get If you ever need to do something secret. You ever need to be
Hannah:sneaky, remember, I'm always watching.
Rachel:So turn that shit off.
Kate:It makes me feel honestly as a single woman that is like, you know, I I don't really fear being alone a lot, but I am always a little bit like, oh god, what if something happened? You know? I it does give me
Rachel:a sense of security
Hannah:that Yeah.
Kate:I do have friends watching my dot. I it makes me feel safer, so thank you for that. You're welcome. Anyways.
Rachel:Anytime. Did anything stand out to me was the question.
Kate:Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry.
Rachel:Just what I said, which is, yeah, she's really good at micro stuff, but she just once she gets bigger,
Kate:I wish She has some I wish her
Hannah:editors see that in the
Rachel:next book, have to understand. Like, and I think by Earth
Hannah:She's not great at war.
Rachel:I think by Earth and Blood, she's better, because I think that the world there is more flesh It's also simpler. And then, by the end, by Flame and Shadow, it's like they fired the it's fine. We're gonna like, we've hashed that. Yeah. But it's like, she reached kind of a pinnacle where the editors were really working with her, and it was great.
Rachel:And then they were like, you know what? Actually, you're fine.
Kate:Well, I think it I think that had to do with her vibe, her time, and her energy she had to write
Rachel:it to. Yeah.
Kate:I think House of Flame like I said before, I think House of Flame and Shadow was like a homework assignment that she had to do, and House of Earth and Blood was an act of love. Well, I don't And it feels like
Rachel:And I think now that romantically has become a more popular genre, we are really not prioritizing well edited books. We're prioritizing Oh,
Kate:100 them out. Like Harlan,
Rachel:when King Melas used to be, where you put one out a month.
Kate:Yes. Like, that's what they're looking for,
Rachel:is like, I need we need a new we need new content every month. Every every couple of weeks, we need a new big title.
Kate:That's the whole that's the whole discussion of anti intellectualism in the community. It's like, I can totally see how these books are fucking dumb. I'm not talking about these math these books. Yeah. But some of these books are not great.
Kate:Yeah. Like, they're they're they they don't hold a lot of anything. And, you know, that's the same argument that people can say about these books. I personally feel that these books and I'm I'm probably, I you know, putting myself in a category, but this is my level of this is perfect for my level of enjoyment for me. Yeah.
Kate:This story is as someone who has been a lifelong fantasy reader, you know, I've read all the Old Wyman. You know, I love those stories. And finding Sarah, it feels the most at home for me. Yeah. And I but I can read books that are better written.
Kate:I can read fantasy that is better written and enjoy it. In in Kay Jameson, her stories are so fucking unique and good that they it, like, kinda drives me crazy how good they are. But I also don't feel like at home in them. Yeah. I feel like I'm I'm being challenged.
Kate:I'm being I'm I'm really being challenged Mhmm. To to by the story and what's happening. Anyways, he's still very at home for Well, think. And so
Rachel:I think there's an argument to be made for if she did have the level of editing that I'm suggesting, and we got more politics, and we got a fully fleshed out macro world, you would lose a subset of readers who are not going to stick around for that. So
Kate:Yeah, I mean, there's Her books are really assessable, and Yeah. Like, they're easy to understand.
Rachel:I think just the tightrope And they're not The thread, the needle that you have to thread to give the larger world more context without giving it so much context that you bog it down is so fine that they just avoid it. Than Right. Rather than fleshing out the queens, you just give me queens. You don't even give me names. They're just the queens.
Rachel:The queens. Because So
Hannah:pretty. The old one.
Kate:The pretty one. The young one. The golden one.
Hannah:The golden queen.
Kate:They knew nothing. No names. The golden queen squatted down and pooped out half of the book. She she just curtsied and the book fell out. And now we've dropped her from the sky.
Kate:I was holding this in my vagina
Hannah:the entire conversation.
Kate:I've been doing kegels my whole life for this moment. Then they just drop her out of the sky impale her on the lamppost. She's impaled. She's given everything for those strong people. She's shattered.
Rachel:She's shattered. Torn to ribbons. Yeah. So I I mean,
Kate:I get Shredded. I get
Rachel:the argument of just I I get why they're fine. Like, I get why you enjoy them. I get why they feel comfortable because they're very readable, and they're enjoyable. They're just it depends on the type of book that you're coming to them for. And I'm Yeah.
Rachel:That's not gonna be the type of book that I'm looking for, and that's fine. That doesn't make it a bad
Kate:It's just can also see things in your mind.
Rachel:Enjoy it as well. That doesn't make it a bad Yeah.
Kate:No. I get it. It's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate:Yeah. Yeah. No. And I get that, and and I don't think that I don't think they're bad either. I mean, I think that there is a demographic of people that are more pulled towards this book, and people like to pee pee on that pee pee on them sometimes.
Kate:Like, you know, it's like the thing, like, when things are really popular, they can't be that good because for the masses to love them, they have to be kinda dimmed down a little Yeah. Like, you know, Marvel and stuff like that. And you know what? I don't fucking care what you think. I don't care.
Kate:I love that shit. And I like Star Wars. You know what? But I also read all of Tolkien, so go fuck yourself. Right.
Kate:And I've also read all of Martin. And I've also read, you know
Rachel:Oh, you made all
Kate:the George Floyd.
Hannah:Me. And Hobb. And, like, think of all the thousands of pages of Brandon Sanderson you've been through. Oh my god.
Kate:It wasn't even Brandon Sando is in another level. A new level. But he's on an I feel like he exists in a world on his own. That's do you but yeah, I have read
Rachel:plots anything out. If you told me He someone claims
Kate:sells something smart.
Rachel:Him. Everyone else? Nope. Yeah. No.
Rachel:I don't. Do you remember do you
Hannah:remember the Bridge Kingdom books that we did?
Kate:Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah:Danielle Jensen says that she doesn't write anything down or or anything like she doesn't write down a plan. She, like, closes her eyes and watches the movie in her head.
Rachel:And then writes it down?
Hannah:She said this recently at a at a thing. Like a con? Yeah. And she said she sees the entire book play out like a movie, and she has to go back and, like, figure some stuff out. But once the movie is finished, then she writes it all down the way she saw it happen.
Kate:Damn. I don't understand that. She said
Hannah:that. I was like,
Kate:That's a really fascinating brain.
Rachel:So in the dark tower
Kate:Right. Yeah. Go ahead. When we
Rachel:talked to Stephen King, there's a part where we meet Stephen King, and he's talking about writing and how he writes. And he's like, I do he says sometimes he plots stuff out, but that if a character goes their own way, he has to go with it, or the story is dead. And I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at it, which is like, you can have an idea of where it wants to go, but if it goes its own way, you have to go with it, Or
Hannah:Yeah. Don't fight it. And that's what Sarah has said
Kate:about why she's made the changes
Hannah:she's made. Yeah. Don't be stubborn. Don't stubbornly stick to this one idea that you had if it's gonna hurt you in the end.
Rachel:Don't write out your traps, and then try to fit them all in. Just go with
Kate:that idea. Write your characters, and if your character evolves and becomes something different, let it be. Let it become that thing.
Rachel:Yeah. The trope charts try to be the little where they put the book up, and then they put the little arrow with all the tropes. Although I saw a really good argument for why we are very trope heavy right now, and it's because in an uncertain world, you want predictability. Trope heavy books are extremely predictable, and so they feel comforting.
Hannah:Yes. Very comforting.
Kate:Yes. Yeah. Like, I want to I have recently read a book that doesn't end brightly, and when I read it, you know, of course it lingered with me, and of course it required me to do more thinking. And of course, I sat there staring at the ceiling and, like, intellectualized what I had just read and and how it fits in today's world. And, like, it did I I was it did all of the the brain things, the intellectualizing that it's supposed to do and the critique and the, like, diving in it and, like, thinking, I did all of that, and I was exhausted, and I didn't wanna fucking do that.
Hannah:And I was like, where's my Minotaur book?
Rachel:Yeah.
Hannah:Yes. Morning Glory Milken Farm, where
Rachel:are you?
Kate:You know? And I and I have to I recognize was like, oh, this is so good for my brain. But there is a piece of that that, like, while it's enjoyable and I find myself growing and I'm so grateful I I read it and was immersed in that world, And books are so fucking political. I also felt like tight like, I
Hannah:was like, oh. Exhausted.
Kate:I was exhausted by that because it's so similar to the world we live in today. Yeah. It requires the the emotional you know, my empathy, My that, like, I'm in that world. I'm feeling what those people are feeling. And this world, in this book, is just as Was it The Handmaid's Tale?
Kate:No. It was no. No. But 19 Close. Yeah.
Kate:And, like, similar Yeah. Similar themes. And, yeah. You know? So it's like, it can be tiring.
Kate:I do need the cozy. I want the cozy minotaur I get it. Milking.
Rachel:I get it.
Hannah:And sometimes I'm reading just to escape. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna escape, and I want to not have to
Rachel:That's how I feel about movies.
Hannah:Use my noggin a lot.
Rachel:I can't tell. Yeah. A movie has to be just George of the Jungle is my favorite movie for a very good reason.
Kate:That's
Hannah:Well, there's a lot of good reasons for that.
Kate:I cannot watch a movie more than once. It's really hard for me to watch things on TV more than one time. Are you one of those people that likes to watch the same thing over and over?
Hannah:Constantly.
Kate:That's an anxiety
Hannah:thing. I don't like to watch you know, you've had to force me to watch new things.
Rachel:Yeah. With watching new content.
Hannah:Happy, but I I have to be made to.
Kate:Yeah. And I don't wanna watch something I've seen before.
Hannah:It's just sit me down, and you have to take the remote from me, and you have to put it on the show, and you have to start it. Yeah. And you have to make What
Kate:was it that you was it Ted last time? Like, what was it then?
Hannah:It was Fleabag. Fleabag. Yeah. Which I'm so great. Yeah.
Hannah:Oh, yeah. Which I have, but I have rewatched.
Rachel:The hurdle Yeah. Hurdle of getting yourself to watch it is Yeah.
Kate:And I'm the exact opposite. I'm constantly seeking novelty. And, like, when I've reread a book eight times, I'm trying to understand what it is about me being with these comfortable characters. Like, I I've read I've listened to Project Hail Mary three times. It's so good and I enjoy it so much that I can just go back and revisit and revisit and revisit when I'm engaging with it like this.
Kate:But I I don't think I'll watch that movie three times. There's something about just the visualization of it that I'm not drawn to watching again and again and again. I think that's yeah.
Rachel:That is interesting. I can't
Hannah:That's very interesting.
Rachel:I do not watch a lot of TV or movies, and so the ones that I Are
Kate:you guys watching Are you guys watching k pop demon hunters?
Rachel:I watched it with the kids, and I thought it was really funny because a lot of the stuff in it is directly from K dramas, like, all their stupid faces
Kate:Yeah.
Rachel:And stuff, and I was like, aw, that's really funny. Like, when she trips Yeah. And he reaches his hand out, that's a huge trope in K dramas
Kate:Yeah.
Rachel:Because that's usually how
Kate:the love
Rachel:interests meet, is the girl will trip over something stupid in slow motion, and then the guy will have to catch her. So when he didn't catch her, it was really funny. So it was cute. Yeah.
Kate:I was sitting with Sadie watching it, and I was sitting there watching it with her. And the moment that the guy, his hat brims up, I looked at him and I looked at Sadie and I said, that is not a villain. That is a love interest. And she was like, how do you know? And I was like, this that's my genre, girl.
Kate:This romantic this is romantic fantasy.
Hannah:Professional at this. This is romantic spot a love interest 10 miles away.
Kate:You cannot fool me. That fine little cartoon character and that
Hannah:fine little demon you?
Kate:Yeah. That's that is a love interest right there. And the and and, like, the friendship, it's just such a good movie. It was cute. It's such a good movie.
Hannah:I really loved it. Yeah.
Kate:I could probably watch that a a couple times.
Rachel:Oh, it's got music.
Kate:Yeah. It's got great music.
Hannah:Which is weird because you hate musicals.
Kate:Yeah. I do.
Rachel:It's not really a musical because they're not,
Kate:like, in daily life. They're, like, performing.
Hannah:True. They're not, like,
Kate:they're not, like, stopping what they're doing and singing at each other.
Hannah:Well, excuse me, but, like, the best song between him and her, they are like talking and working out stuff and they stop and sing at each other.
Kate:Well, I've skipped that part because I don't remember it. The I don't mind animated singing. That's different. It's like real life singing Yeah.
Hannah:At each other.
Rachel:Makes you uncomfortable.
Kate:Except for in Wicked. But I think that's because it's so So good. So cartoon like.
Rachel:Oh.
Kate:Yeah. You know? That's fair. So colorful. It's a fantasy story.
Kate:But, like, if it's not fantasy and you just stop what you're doing to sing, what? I love it. Yeah. A funny way
Hannah:stop this thing at you right now.
Rachel:I love the Buffy musical.
Kate:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Buffy musical.
Rachel:Still good?
Kate:Yeah. Well, I think that we've said everything I think we've everything
Hannah:we wanted to say about Mist and Fury.
Kate:No, that was good.
Rachel:And now we'll just do the
Hannah:next Yeah, it's a I can't wait. I can't wait. Alright. Bye, friends. Bye.
Hannah:Bye.
